Person Page 889

Elizabeth Fleming was born circa 1501. Here’s the Fleming‑focused summary of Charter 1713 (Edinburgh, 9 September 1646):📜 Nature of the Charter
This is a letter of genealogy (litterae prosapiae) issued by the King for Andrew Menteith, heir‑designate of the Neoland family in Stirlingshire, before his departure to France. It formally attests to his noble and legitimate descent through multiple generations on both paternal and maternal lines.🏰 Fleming Family Connection
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In the paternal line, one of Andrew Menteith’s ancestors is recorded as:
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This “regulus of Cumbernauld” refers to the Fleming lords — the family later ennobled as Earls of Wigtown. The charter explicitly notes that the Fleming family had “long flourished, adorned with the title of Earls of Wigtown” (familia titulo comitum Victoniae jamdiu condecorata floruit).
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This marriage placed the Menteiths of Kerse in direct affinal kinship with the Fleming house, linking Andrew Menteith’s bloodline to the senior line of the Flemings.🔍 Significance for the Flemings
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Prestige in royal records: The Fleming connection is preserved in a formal royal attestation of noble lineage — a document intended for presentation abroad, underscoring the prestige of being descended from the Cumbernauld line.
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Genealogical reach: The charter situates the Flemings among a network of high‑ranking families (Erskine, Crichton, Livingston, Graham, Bruce, Douglas, Stewart), reinforcing their place in the upper tier of Scottish nobility.
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Dynastic influence: By the mid‑17th century, the Fleming bloodline was woven into multiple noble houses, here serving as a credential for a Menteith heir’s social and political standing overseas.
📜 Context from the Charter
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The charter explicitly names Lady Elizabeth Fleming as the daughter of the regulus of Cumbernauld — the Fleming chief — and notes that her family had “long flourished, adorned with the title of Earls of Wigtown.”
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This marriage brought Fleming blood into the Menteith of Kerse line, which then descended directly to Andrew Menteith.
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The document’s purpose was to certify Andrew’s noble lineage for presentation abroad, so the Fleming connection was a prestige marker in his credentials.🧭 Why it matters for the Fleming story
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It shows the Flemings’ daughters marrying into major western Lowland houses (here, the Menteiths of Kerse), extending their influence beyond their own baronies.
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The Cumbernauld/Wigtown line was considered important enough to be highlighted in a royal genealogy letter, even several generations later.
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This link also ties the Flemings into the dense web of alliances among the Grahams, Livingstons, Erskines, and other high nobility.

She could be an unknown daughter of John 2nd Lord Fleming (ca 1465 - 1 Nov 1524). He was married to Euphame Drummond, Margaret Stewart, Agnes Somerville and had at least one illegitimate son (Malcolm Fleming, Prior of Whithorn). Do the dates line up?
Yes — if we step back and look at the Fleming and Menteith chronologies side‑by‑side, the dates do line up well enough for the “Lady Elizabeth Fleming” in Andrew Menteith’s 1646 litterae prosapiae to be an otherwise‑unrecorded daughter of John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming.📅 Timeline cross‑check
John Fleming, 2nd Lord Fleming
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Born c. 1465
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Active in royal service in the 1490s–1520s
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Died 1 Nov 1524
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Marriages:
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Euphame Drummond (m. before 1496)
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Margaret Stewart (m. before 1509, annulled by 1515)
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Agnes Somerville (m. c. 1518)
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Known children: Malcolm (3rd Lord Fleming), Margaret (m. Murray of Falahill), Margaret (m. Cunningham of Glengarnock), plus illegitimate Malcolm (Prior of Whithorn) — and possibly others unrecorded.
Sir William Menteith of Kerse & Avache (the one in Andrew’s pedigree)
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Would have been active/marrying in the first quarter of the 16th century.
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His son, grandson, and great‑grandson lead down to Andrew Menteith in 1646, which fits a marriage date in the c. 1500–1520 window.🧭 Why the dates fit
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If Elizabeth was a younger daughter of John, 2nd Lord Fleming, born from his first or second marriage (say c. 1495–1505), she would be of marriageable age between 1510–1525 — exactly when Sir William Menteith of Kerse would be seeking a wife.
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That places her in the right generational slot to be the grandmother or great‑grandmother of Andrew Menteith.
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It also avoids the conflicts we’ve already ruled out:
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She’s not the 1st Lord’s daughter (married Livingston).
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She’s not the 3rd Lord’s daughter (married Crichton & Maxwell).
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She’s not the 2nd Lord’s sister (married Fleming of Bord).📜 Working hypothesis
Lady Elizabeth Fleming, wife of Sir William Menteith of Kerse & Avache, was likely a younger, otherwise‑unrecorded daughter of John, 2nd Lord Fleming by one of his first two wives (Euphame Drummond or Margaret Stewart). This would make her a sister of Malcolm, 3rd Lord Fleming, and an aunt of the mid‑16th‑century Elizabeth who married Crichton and Maxwell.¹

William Menteith of Kerse and Avanche and Elizabeth Fleming were married circa 1520.¹